With shipping back to the US, how much? Curious the details about this engine. Nicely captured. Thanks for sharing!
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Mitch, Doyle looked at this locomotive in 1999 when he got the other one that is now NKP 190. He said then that this unit was too far gone to even consider bringing it back to the U.S. He really wanted to bring both of them back, but he sadly realized it wasn't fully worth it! Even he knew it was a shame to leave it behind, but he also knew when to cut a loss when he saw it! I too am saddened by this locomotive being "lost"!
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What's the provenance of this one? Doyle said it was too far gone? Considering what he brought home from Mexico, I'm more than a little surprised!
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What's the lost cause? The frame and superstructure look pretty darn good - actually impressive considering the circumstances. Now, if we're talking restoring the locomotive to run under its own power, that's a different story, but a cosmetic-only restoration would be just as heralded in my opinion.
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The 3 units of the CP never operated commercially in USA, they only were manufactured in USA, these were commissioned in the year of 1953 by CP to run in the rails without electrification of the company, the locomotive 600 was scrapped in the time of nationalization of the CP, the 601 ended operation and was renumbered 600 and was for years conserved aesthetically in the front of the maintenance shed that belonged to CP and passed into the possession of the statal company of the state of São Palo FEPASA(Ferrovia Paulista Sociedade Anônima) in 1971 and the 602 had his body scrapped and the cab became an adornment of a roadside restaurant that never opened, so none of the units were to the U.S.A., already tried to restore it but the restauration stoped and the locomotive keep with the base yellow ink, the original color of the locomotives was blue with white stripe:
http://api.ning.com/files/9omC6pKO1K3WrmkkfkixuyASceU*xRjXoy9hNXegrDidkyPsgxnccM3EU-M3u2uwDhT4RrVox82YjMdQ9rZ1U8ru9MqzTTTS/alco_pa2_jundiai_0671.jpg
(the photo is not by me), note that the area of coupling is diferente then the north american locomotives, this is because in the year they were manufactured the CP still wore English style couplings.
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Very interesting background. Thank you for posting the details!
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To add to my earlier post, and to respond to above comments regarding the choice by Doyle McCormack to forgo getting this Alco too. The Alco Doyle brought home from Mexico was more intact than this one, and was an overall better candidate to restore than this unit. Trains magazine did an article about Doyle's passion for bringing an Alco PA back to life in 1998 when he first set out on his mission to do just that. The only two Alco's that are known to be in existence (I believe) were this one and the one he got from Mexico. When Doyle looked at and assessed this one he knew it was too much of a "loss" unfortunately to ship it to the U.S. and try to do anything to it. Hence why he went with the one from Mexico. It was in better condition overall and had the proper groundwork in place needed to restore it. It had all the mechanical components and the cab was intact with the original controls as this one is just a frame and stripped completely and totally bare. Don't forget, even the one he got out of Mexico in 2000 still took 14 years to rebuild to operating condition. Yeah, Doyle wanted this one too, but he also realized that it sadly just wasn't worth the cost to even ship to the U.S. "as-is"!
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Well done for capturing this image of this sadly forgotten locomotive! As fro any idea of restoration look carefully in the foreground and you will what is a power unit's crank shaft laying on the floor of the engine shed. The engine is missing and was probably stripped for parts. But a cosmetic restoration would not be too much out of the question. Great photo thanks for sharing.
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This looks to be in far better shape than the two that were repatriated. Actually has trucks and no wreck damage. Headlight and fan housing are even there.
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Weren't the trucks an issue? Is this some crazy gauge where these couldn't be reused..?
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There are more PA's in the world than just this one and Doyle's 190. It's a little known fact that the railroad museum in Puebla, Mexico has the former D&H 17 and 19, both of which are completely intact. They also have a D&H C628.
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To further correct some posts that have been added and inform those viewing this photo, there are only 2 Alco PA's in existence o this one and Doyle's NKP 190. That's what makes this photo such a disappointing view! The Alco's mentioned in another post are Alco "F"A's NOT PA's. Yes several Alco FA's were spared the scrappers torch, however ALL but 2 Alco PA's were scrapped. And this unit and Doyle's NKP 190 were both operated in the U.S. on the Nickel Plate Road and sent south of the border after retirement. That's why Doyle wanted the one from Mexico, his father was an engineer for the NKP and No. 190 was the specific Alco PA locomotive his dad operated. So when Doyle had the opportunity to repatriate a salvageable Alco PA - he got it and restored it to honor his father. NKP 190 is his tribute to the NKP AND his father. He also got a ride in it when his dad took him into the cab as a child!
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Dana, you are incorrect. All four of the D&H PA-1's (rebuilt into PA-4's) were sold to NdeM in the late 1970s. #16 was wrecked and came back to the US with #18, which has become Doyle's 190. #17 and #19 remain in Mexico at their National Railroad Museum in Puebla. They are not FA's: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2376956
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Doyle's locomotive is actually not the original Nickel Plate 190. He recreated the locomotive from his youth using a unit built for the Santa Fe. Its second owner was the D&H, who then sold it to NdeM. The poster of this photo has also indicated that the locomotive pictured did not operate in the US. It was built new for the system in Brazil.
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To further correct the false information about how many Alco PA's exist, according to "Trains" Magazine editor Jim Wrinn, (whom I correspond with on occasion), AND Doyle McCormack who now owns an Alco PA - There are only TWO Alco PA's in existence. Also the N.C. Transportation Museum in mentioning the Alco PA Nickel Plate Road No. 190 states that this locomotive is "extremely rare"! The Alco PA that Doyle McCormack now owns was originally built in 1948 for the New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad aka The Nickel Plate Road and was numbered 190. It operated between Chicago, Il and Buffalo, N.Y. and also ran between Cleveland, Oh and St. Louis, Mo. and was then sold to Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico in 1978. So Toby, to say that the Nickel Plate Road No. 190 that Doyle owns is NOT the original 190 but just "recreated" from his youth is calling Doyle a liar. I would tend to believe Doyle McCormack and "Trains" Magazine know what they are talking about when they indicate that there are ONLY TWO Alco PA's in existence, and that the Alco PA that Doyle McCormack now owns is the ORIGINAL NKP No. 190 would be more true than your information. Since Doyle's father operated NKP No. 190 personally, I would think Doyle would know where that locomotive ended up so he could get it back. Check your facts Toby, I believe you are mistaken.
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Your information is incredibly wrong. There is 190, incidentally there never was an NKP 190, 189 was the highest numbered one NKP had, then there is the one in Texas that was originally to go to the Smithsonian but instead is being restored elsewhere that Doyle brought back to the US with 190, then there are 2 in Mexico that are complete and serviceable. All 4 of those are ex Santa Fe, nee D&H. Then there are the two in Brazil that were ordered from Brazil and Delivered to Brazil complete with broad gauge trucks. SO there are 6 total, and at least 3 that are somewhat complete, not sure about the second one in Brazil.
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Sorry, to correct myself there is only one left in Brazil, so there are 5 Extant PA's. 3 are pretty much complete and almost or nearly almost operable. Also I was confused, there was in fact an NKP 190, the one Doyle has was most definitely not it though. His locomotive was ATSF 62-L and later D&H 18.
Here it is straight from Doyle himself, quit spreading misinformation you are obviously clueless about Dana. http://www.nkp190.com/history.html
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Dana, read the link that Brent posted, in which Doyle himself clearly explains that his locomotive is a facsimile. We've all followed this project for over ten years, and we all know that "NKP 190" was Santa Fe 62L. Doyle never denied that. Also, please look at the picture I posted that clearly shows PA-1's 17 and 19 at the museum in Mexico. Also look around this website to see all four of the PA's I mentioned while they operating for the D&H. And please, in the future, you check YOUR facts, and read Trains Magazine more carefully, because you probably let a lot of important content fly over your head.
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Also, one more note about the two units in Mexico. Yes, they are nearly operational. 19 split its crankshaft and is basically toast, but 17 was serviceable when it arrived at the museum. The crew at NdeM was very proud of those engines, and the Southern Pacific scheme on 17 was suggested by a railfan who used to frequent the shop when they were still running. The D&H C628 (610, I believe) is at a different museum elsewhere in Mexico. I remembered that incorrectly.
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This passage from the Streamliners at Spencer event might be the source of some confusion:
"The American Locomotive Company (ALCo) PA-1, restored as the Nickel Plate Road (NKP) #190, is just one of only two ALCo PA locomotives remaining in the United States. Housed at the Oregon Rail Heritage Center in Portland, the unit is a great addition, with Trains Magazine calling it the 'cherry on top' for the event."
Note it says that Doyle's locomotive is "restored as" NKP 190. It also says it is one of two PA's remaining in the United States, not one of two left in the world. There's one in Brazil and two in Mexico.
Once again, here is the history of "NKP 190" from Doyle's official website:
http://nkp190.com/history.html
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Okay, I admit that some of my information was not adequate enough to be entirely accurate. However, according to Doyle McCormack's web site (NKP190.com), there are ONLY 4 (FOUR) Alco PA's in existence in the world. All four units were sent to Mexico after their retirement in the U.S. Two were repatriated from Mexico by Doyle McCormack. Doyle's NKP 190 (Ex D&H #18) was in fact a NKP unit before going to the D&H and then to Mexico. The other Alco PA (Ex Santa FE/D&H #19) is now in Frisco, Texas and being restored back to it's original Santa Fe Warbonnet scheme for the Smithsonian Institution, where it will eventually be sent to Washington D.C. to be put on display in one of the Smithsonian Institutes museum complexes. The only TWO other remaining Alco PA's are still in Mexico. So the locomotive in this photo is in fact an Alco FA, as the ONLY 4 (FOUR) remaining Alco PA's in the world were all sold to Mexico after retirement in the U.S. None of 4 remaining Alco PA's in existence were ever sent to Chile. Source of this information: Doyle McCormack himself, and his web site: nkp190.com! End of discussion!
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This is an Alco PA, not an FA. Long carbody, 2 6 axle trucks, 4 traction motors, it is an Alco PA, you are wrong in every way possible.
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Also the one in Texas WILL NOT, go into the Smithsonian, that plan was scrapped long ago and the Locomotive now belongs to the group in Texas and will stay with them.
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Brent's right, this locomotive is a PA. An FA would only have four axles and would also have a shorter carbody. Dana, you are still incorrect about 190. All four of the D&H units came from Santa Fe. In the History section of Doyle's website he writes: "The #190 ran on trains that operated between Chicago, IL and Buffalo, NY, as well as between Cleveland, OH and Saint Louis, MO. The NKP PAs were based and maintained in Conneaut, OH, Doyle's home town. Unfortunately, none of the NKP PA locomotives survived the scrapper's torch." Did you catch that? 190 was scrapped like all the rest, and the current "NKP 190" was originally Santa Fe 62L. That's why Doyle included pictures and information about 62L in his history page. Also, the unit in Texas is ex-D&H 16, which was badly wrecked in Mexico. The Smithsonian decided not to take it, and there is now an independent organization raising funds to restore it as a Warbonnet. The units in Mexico are 17 and 19. Here is another link to Doyle's history page: http://nkp190.com/history.html
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As a follow-up, here is a Trains magazine article with coverage of the two PAs in Puebla, Mexico. Pictures and commentary galore: http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2012/10/10/south-of-the-border-the-railroading-isn-t-much-different.aspx
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Thank you all for the "beat down" - I realized a few comments back that I was misinformed and I am sorry now for trying to defend my misinformation. I learned my lesson and am humbly embarrassed by it all. May I please not be reminded of it now! Thank you all for assisting in my "education" to the facts - and I've beaten myself up royally for my stubborn insistence at defending myself. Please forgive me for my ignorance. I'll try to learn from my mistake about getting my facts before posting another comment on any photos posted on RP.net in the future.
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